Thursday 16 June 2011

Is it racist to be happy that Nolan is English and white?

A debate has been "raging" on here because somebody posted delight at the signing of Nolan because he is English and white. The contention is that this is racist, not least because the comment also referred to the player's commitment. I quote: "great signing and he is a white english player so he will have real heart for next season."

My initial reaction was that the comment might be in response to the betrayal of Ba, following on from the defections of Ince, Defoe and Reo-Choker. We might add to that list Piqiounne, Dyer, Faubert, McCarthy and Ilunga whose commitment to the cause has been questionable this season and Hines, if it is true that he is quitting the club. Many also believe that Cole's efforts fell some way short of 100% last season.

But then, we could point to Upson as a white player who has coasted. And Lampard demanded a move of course. And West Ham legend Scotty Parker - Mr 100% - is doing his level best to secure a move to Tottenham. So this clearly isn't a clear cut black and white issue, if you will excuse the pun.

That said, since the emergence of black players in the game, how many have truly endeared themselves to West Ham fans? The bulk of the Judas figures, unfortunately, are black and I think that the Big White Fat Judas Lampard had a legitimate reason to shaft the club after the sacking of his Dad and Uncle.

So, who are the black cult heroes? Clyde Best was something of a joke figure but fans were truly racist back then. The first black hero was probably George Parris and with good reason given he appeared 300 times for the club. But who else?

Rio of course, but he left when still a  Beaujolais Nouveau, he only matured in the bottle at Man Utd. Not his fault I know, but he still left before we saw the best of him - unlike, for example, Cottee (although Joe Cole left early too, as did Johnson of course.) Brother Anton never endeared himself did he? He appeared over 150 times but there was always a question mark over his passion and his enthusiasm if up against a Kevin Davies figure. Zamora gave his all and the fans loved him, but he has looked a much better player since joining Fulham. Mention him as a candidate for England whilst at West Ham and you would have been laughed out of the Duke of Edinburgh! Mullins was an unsung hero but you won't hear him remembered afectionately by many Hammers fans. Trevor Sinclair did well of course, and Shaka but would either make it into many fans' team of favourites?

Who else? David James? Hmmmmmm. Harewood. Hmmmm. Boa? Hmmmm. Carlton? Hmmmmm. Gabbidon? Hmmmmm. Obinna? Hmmmmm. Stanislas? Hmmmm. Savio? Hmmmmmmmmmm. Camara? Hmmmmm. Paintsil? Better at Fulham. Newton? Hmmmmmm. Quashie? Hmmmmmmm. McAnuff? Hmmmmmm. Titi Camamra? Hmmmmmm. Song? Hmmmmmmmm. Kanoute? Very good player but where did he go and how committed was he in a West Ham shirt? Gary Charles? Hmmmmm. Paolo Wanchope? Hmmmmmm. Ian Wright. But how long did we have him and Arsenal are his club really, like Brady. Foe? Only played 50 games. Les Ferdinand? 12 starts. Whitebread? Hmmmmm.  Matty Rush? Hmmmmmm. Small? Hmmmmmm. Mitchell Thomas? Hmmmmmm. Chris Hughton? Less than 50 games and really a Spurs man. Lero Roseinoir? Only started just over 50 games.  Justin Fashanu? Hmmmmm. Bobby Barnes? Hmmmmmm. Ade Coker? Hmmmmmm. It isn't a roll of honour is it?

Now turn to those who played last season and, ranking them purely on effort, who would be the top five players? Parker definitely. Noble probably (compare his return from appendicitis with Piquionne missing a game with toothache). Spector arguably. Tomkins unquestionably. Sears surely. O'Neil potentially. Green probably. What do they all have in common? And what nationality are six of them?

Then list the players who have sweated blood for the Claret and Blue cause since the emergence of black players. Could anybody argue that the real blood, sweat and tears merchants would be Alvin Martin, Julian Dicks, Scott Parker, Ray Stewart, Geoff Pike, Stuart Pearce (albeit briefly), Mad Dog Allen, Steve Lomas, George Parris, Steve Potts, Tony Cottee, John Hartson, Repka and Ludek Miklosko? (Bonds and co predate the black revolution in the game.) What do all but Parris have in common? What nationality are seven of them? How many come from the British Isles?

Is it racist to point this out? When you look at the facts, it is hard to argue against somebody expressing pleasure at the signing of a white Englishman based on commitment. Sadly, the facts support the view that this policy is likely to produce a more committed player wearing Claret and Blue. Have I been selective with the evidence? Well I've missed out Brevett but how significant was he? I've not gone back to John Charles, but then I've not included Moore, Bonds, Paddon, Pop Robson, Patsi Holland, Trevor Brooking, Alan Devonshire, David Cross, etcetera. If you go back that far, the stats count against black players because there were so few in the game.

And I will be honest here, I was pleased that we had signed a white Englishman and I am desperate for us to keep hold of Noble, Tomkins and Collison (Welsh I know) for the same reason. Because I am racist? No. I am pleased for the same reason that it was important for Viv Anderson and Cyril Regis to play in the 80's. White players are needed now as role models, an example to young white English boys that they too can play in the Premiership for West Ham: having black skin or being a foreigner is not a pre-requisite.

Racist? Perhaps the guy who left the original comment is a racist, I don't know. What I do know is that the stats appear to suggest that for West Ham, buying a white British player is likely to be a better bet than buying a black British player or a black foreign player. Why is that? I don't know. But if you want to argue the case, please give the evidence that contradicts this conclusion because present players and past players support that conclusion. Or have I got it wrong?

35 comments:

Dave said...

Is it racist for black Americans to be proud that President Obama is a black American? Of course not! Some people have just lost their frame of reference over the years by listening to too much PC crap. What colour sheep is Ba Ba now? Used to be black when I was a kid! Unfortunately Ba Ba's like most modern Brits nowadays - without any real identity of their own

Anonymous said...

WHAT THE!!!....

Michael Henehan said...

I think 'Yes' would have been sufficient. I can't believe you've even given the thought the time of day.

I fear the 'workhorses' you are trotting out only had more of a rapport with fans because some of the fans themselves (if they are anything like you) don't seem to be able to identify with black players.

This article saddens me- the very separation of West Ham players into black and white is a throwback from days gone by. Thought we hammers were past this kind of Millwall crap.

Anonymous said...

reported

John said...

Surely you are allowed to express, and describe, a preference of what you would prefer, without being accused of being a racist.What has happened to freedom of thought and free speech in this country. Do we have to check with a lawyer before we say anything these days.
This sickening political correctness drives me completely Bonkers.

Anonymous said...

No you are not racist, but this might offend. But this is not a good enough reason to hold back in my opinion.

Who will it offend? I suppose the type of person that has been at the wrong end of real racism and prejudice. maybe so. But to be honest, you will find that the peopple who take most offense do not really understand prejudice and play the politically correct game too hard without any real thought.

I am white and was one of a handful of whites at a predominantly black school. I was often at the wrong end of racist comments (for being white) and I do not believe it changed me for the worse, in fact I have learned many positive things from it.

But the point is I often see positive descrimination taking place - e.g. The Music Of Black Origin (MOBO) wards is accepted as a really good cause for black equality - now can you imagine the equivalent awards for "white music"??? - MOWO....I doubt it. However, I accept that there are cultural differences between different races and that does not bother me. It is a fact and accepting facts is not racist.

If your comments were pure opinon, and that opinion was seriously off the mark, perhaps you would have to think twice. However, you have quite a comprehensive list of players and show a good deal of understanding of their relative capabilities, so I think it is a good thought prevoking, honest article. On the other hand, I just wish WHUFC could nurture a truly talented team that was made up from home grown players (white, black or otherwise) that could truly make us proud to be WHUFC fans once again.

WHU Forever.

the headmaster said...

As usual, HF, you argue in an intelligent and convincing way and it is true to say that much of what you have to say, particularly as regards some of the black players that have disappointed wearing the claret and blue, is true. That said, there are more white players than the list you have made, who have also let us down big-style.
I guess what I am sayong is that the argument is essentially spurious.
My own view is that our friend at 16:19 yesterday introduced an unfortunate element into the welcoming of Nolan. I am absolutely delighted that he's signed because I see him as a winner, full of steel and determination and no little talent. He also has an affinity with Big Sam. Is any of that because he is white - not in my view. Would I be pleased if we were able to sign Ashley Cole, Ashley Young, Odimwimge, Drogba? You betcha.

Anonymous said...

let's call a spade a spade, we've got a good mix of races and creeds at the club and if the addition of a white english player makes a white english fan happy then that in it's self is not racist. I'm sure spanish chelsea fans were pleased to see torres sign and the same with manure's park ji sung and their south korean fans. it would be racist if other nationalities were not welcome, but that's clearly not the case at our inclusive club.

Anonymous said...

George Parris was the don. Cas Pennant raves about him.

Anonymous said...

I heard Nolan's a real nagger in the dressing room.

US HF said...

As someone who studied this sensitive subject I would argue it IS racist. Racism is often thought of the heavy / passionate hatred for people of color (which it can be), but racism is also the acknowledgement of differences between ones skin color, culture, etc..

I'm not saying HF is racist, but the comment "I'm glad he's WHITE and ENGLISH" is racist to the means that you enjoyed the signing not cause hes good but because of his skin color and background.

FYI - Spector is better than English his AMERICAN. That should get some blood boiling ah ha

Anonymous said...

Idiotic article. I couldn't hold you in any less regard for even giving time to such a ridiculous premise. This does a grave injustice to the image of West Ham supporters and perpetuates the belief that we are all BNP supporting morons.

Before you start all the 'I was only talking in facts' and 'it was only intended as an objective piece on the legacy of black players' shite - stop.

Articles like this highlighting the difference between black and white people on the basis of work ethic are part of a massive problem that you and your ridiculous blog are now continuing to further. Intentionally or otherwise you are a complete moron.

And this is only anonymous because I don't have an account rather than I am afraid of my identity. My name is Chris.

Hammersfan said...

There's one reply I have not been able to carry because of foul language. If you would like to repost without the F word, I will happily carry it.

Of course the list of white players is not exhaustive Headmaster, but would you disagree with the list of players most committed to the cause last season and in previous seasons? I am reaching no conclusions, I am simply pointing out why fans might feel that signing a white British player may be preferable if you are looking for commitment. You might argue Ian Wright merits a place in the list of committed players I suppose. I really am trying to look at this objectively, on the basis of evidence.

As for why does skin colour come into it, why do we have MOBO awards if colour of skin is not a consideration? I don't think there should be MOBO awards personally because I think segregation in all forms is wrong but society embraces celebration of black skin.

If West Ham had enjoyed the services of Drogba, Essien, Ashley Cole etcetera, there would not be an argument. This isn't about black players, it is about black players who have played for and who presently play for West Ham. I am anti BNP and anti racism but there may be a debate to be had based on the evidence.

Hammersfan said...

Chris, I respect your passionate view but I ask a question at the end, "Or have I got it wrong?" If I have, give the evidence. The comment wasn't mine, it was posted on the blog and I have explored WHY fans might feel like this for reasons other than pure racism. I said that the poster may have been motivated by racism. But he may not given the relative lack of success of the black and foreign players we have recruited.

Anonymous said...

This is utter bollocks.. In truth your obviously not looking at the whole picture and should judge a player on what they do for the club throughout the time they are there, not just on one season..

Take Carlton, in all honesty he hasn't had a good season, but would you judge his commitment to club over that?.. Remember this is a player played half a season still injured and played an unsung role in helping us stay up the season before last. Is that not committed to the cause?

You cannot take the way how the club is run out of this equation.. The appointment and bodged attempt at dismissing Grant was a total lack of commitment to the club and most importantly us, the fans...

I don't think its racist, but I do think it is a bit pigheaded.. It is 2011, and as proud young mixed raced irons fan I'm proud that he is English but I don't give a flying fuck whether he is white, black, blue or orange because it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to how he plays!

Hammersfan said...

I agree with your Cole argument personally but many don't. He is a figure who divides isn't he?

tommyd said...

I agree, it's not racist because the facts proove that he is right! Piquionne and Cole for example are clearly very talented footballers, but did they look at all motivated? Did they really look liek they were giving 100%? NO! Call me a racist whatever, water off a ducks back. However I'm sure if we had Cole, Drogba, Essien at our disposal it'd be a differnt story!

Anonymous said...

Shush with all this PC nonsense, if the bloke wants to think it let him think it.

Isn't this supposed to be a free country.

Anonymous said...

looks like ricardo gardner's going to redress the balance, we may be looking a bit like bolton but these players should romp it in the championship

Clez said...

The guy's comment yesterday was racist - simple as. Your argument as to whether there have been any truly great black players for West Ham is valid and not racist. However, what really makes my blood boil was the mention of Repka as a good player! the guy was a madman and a confounded arse of the highest order. Committed? he should have been

Hammersfan said...

LOL Clez, I was in two minds. I think he reformed personally and gave 100%. Nutter yes. Limited ability yes. Committed, as you say should have been but I don't think many opposition players fancied facing him!

the headmaster said...

Likin that Clez - lol!

Anonymous said...

To be honest I never really notice skin colour, and it's a shame people still think skin colour affects a players ability.
I'm sure we are not bothered when black players pull on an England shirt, why should it matter for west ham.
Apart from Parker what White player had a good season?
If you say hitzlesperger, maybe a couple or so good games, which is the same as obinha or cole.
For every"good" English player I'll give you two good foreign black players, it's just unfortunate none of them wear claret and blue
Mutley71

Anonymous said...

If comments some nameless, faceless author writes on a blog bothers people then they need to get a hobby or a sense of reality. Seriously, we can't deal with people we agree with in every point. Why are we dissecting these comments? Jesus aren't there better things to do?

Anonymous said...

Stani : "I see racists"
HF : "In your dreams?"
(Stani shakes his head no)
HF : "While you're awake?"
(Stani nods)
HF : "Racists like in shops,on buses?"
Stani : "Walking around like regular people, they don't see each other, they only see what they want to see, they don't know they're racists."
HF : "How often do you see them?"
Stani : "They're everywhere"

Anonymous said...

Dissapointment has taken me over. HF, I have always taken the time to read your posts as I have done now as they always raise a valid point in some way or another. However, my dissapointment lies with the fact that this does not really smack of racism (as your weak opinion leans towards), but for the apparent lack of football fact and knowledge you have displayed within this post. Check the opta stats before spouting off.......apart from parker, cole ad LBM covered the most area during the season. Yes they were shite, but thats commitment. Colour and nationality count for nothing you dumbass, ask Barca! Maybe we could sign Hargreaves, woodgate, Owen, to strengthen us and provide us with good "white English" commitment. Anyone is welcome at this club as long as they fight for the badge, shame we cant be so selective with its "supporters". Quick suggestion, go offer you factual opinion to the non committed karl henry that wasnt interested in keeping wolves up.

Hammersfan said...

2211, I would be surprised about Boa - he didn't play in many games did he? Is this ground covered per game? But you are right, he is shit! I say above that I am more sympathetic to Cole than others. He divides opinion and I have defended him often, as you will know if you visit the site regularly.

Not sure how the point about the Wolves player is relevant. This isn't about black players. How could it be? Pele was perhaps the best the world has ever seen. Ince was certainly committed, just not to West Ham. Henry was a genius. Essien is World Class. Drogba has been awesome. This is about why West Ham fans associate White and British with commitment. Are the fans racist or is it based on a history of disappointment?

Deane said...

I think you'll find a lot of our fans are racist and I'm sure the comment on which the article is based was racist
Just because a number of black players have not made the grade at West Ham does not justify an argument for white players
I wonder how you'd react if Paulo DiCanio said he only wanted white English players at Swindon because they are more committed and history shows that Swindon town have never had any black players that were up to much anyway and here are the statistics to prove it

Hammersfan said...

I would react in the same way to Di Canio as I would to Allardyce saying it, I would be horrified Deane. But I am not proposing an embargo on black or foreign players, I am looking at why west Ham fans make the connection between colour and commitment. That is completely different. It's like the financial services ads which say past performance is no guarantee to future performance. But if a fund has performed well over a number of years, you opt for it; and if a fund has underperformed, you avoid it. However, if the fund manager changes, you make take a different view. It would be crazy not to recruit black players but Nolan or Reo-Coker? No choice in my book. Henry in his prime or Cottee in his prime? Henry every day of the week! Trouble is, have we ever had an Henry? Nope.

Anonymous said...

"In Germany they came first for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."

USA Dave said...

Does anybody remember Obama's speech on race during the 08 campaign when he discussed the controversy over his pastor's racist comments? I recall one part when he admitted even his mother had been anxious walking at night and seeing a group of young black men. Was that racist?

It was one of the most grownup, thought provoking speeches I had ever heard. The point is, we must discuss these things as often aa we can. That is where insight and understanding can come.

And by the way, two guys opted out this week. Hitz and Ba. Sam wanted to keep one and didnt seem bothered by the other. We all know which is which.

Anonymous said...

what do you reckon would have been the first objection to signing Justin Fashanu back when he was playing and not hanging around?

Hammersfan said...

Good point about Hitz Dave, but in England, one form of racism does appear to be perfectly acceptable. We hate German footballers! I blogged when he joined that it would feel strange actually cheering on a German footballer so his betrayal is almost a given! But joking apart, you are right. He is another in the line of Judas!

Anonymous said...

Kevin in manchester writes..

Interesting article and it's good to think about these things, so well done really for engaging and not leaving the original thread to carry on without some attempt at a sensible up sum.

However your statistical break down proves nothing; it's too small.The west ham 'experience with black and white players is random and is no guide to the future anymore than arsenal's extensive corps of 'black' heroes is a useful guide to how they should recruit in future.

I think if someone's vision of their ideal player is a sweaty white bloke that won't let it lie then fair enough but the difficulty with vocalising such a thought is that others will use it to feed racial stereotypes such as .. they don't like it up 'em, when it gets cold they disappear, they are not as loyal.. all of which is patently untrue.

USA Dave said...

Actually HF, we dont know what came first. Perhaps Hitz opted out after speaking wirh Sam? I believed the various reports that said he was seriously considering staying, that he felt he owed us a full season. But once he got the distinct vibe that Sam wasnt bothered, he was off.

Ba on the other hand seems to be living out exactly what Hoffenheim accused him of. Im probably being a bit harsh, seeing the whole thing through claret colored glasses. I mean, who can actually blame him? But I wish him nothing but the worst. I hope his knee explodes in his first game whereever the hell he ends up and thats that. He isnt SO good that we need to get drop to our knees with pads on at the very mention of his name. Pards, Moyes, whomever will see that soon enough.